ZNH Podcast, sort of: Explaining China to western radio talk show hosts

Cam,

Thank you for your effort of trying to explain how we Chinese feel to the Western audiences. However, I can't agree with your notion that we Chinese can't tell the difference between the country and the government.

Look at the signs of the Free Tibet crowd, it says "Shame on China," not "Shame on Chinese government." Besides, the land of Tibet belongs to all Chinese people. How can they say they are not against the Chinese people when they advocate Tibet independence? So who is the one can't tell the difference between the country and it's government here? We are not stupid you know.

If there is only one thing that can unify all Chinese on this planet, it's Tibet! I just got back from Beijing, I've never seen people so pissed off since 1989! Only this time they are not angry at the Chinese government, but at the Western media and politicians.

Mass protests have been planned by Chinese students in Toronto, New York City, Melbourne and Sydney in the coming weeks. Of course, you are not going to hear it from the mainstream Western media.

Anon, you bring up some good points. However, I would still maintain that China has a difficult time differentiating between government and country. Your example proves my point: writing "China" on a sign means the Chinese government, not the people. In news articles, you'll often see "Beijing has announced..." It doesn't mean the Beijing people or city, it means the central government based there. Just a different way of writing.

Second, if there are "mass protests" in any of those cities listed, I can guarantee you the mainstream press will cover them. As Chinese people are new at protesting (generally speaking) one hopes they do what Paul mentions in his post below: send out news releases in advance, have spokespeople available, etc. These are all important media management techniques that can ensure coverage. Sometimes it's not simply the media's fault for not covering an event.

Finally, lost in all of these arguments about media is the feeling of Tibetan people. When I broach this subject with Chinese people, I hear excuses: the Dalai clique is behind the protests, it's a small group, it's only poor or confused Tibetans, it's the media's fault. China - and the Chinese people - need to stop blaming others and begin asking Tibetans how they feel, and why they feel that way. If they don't, expect western countries and people to continue being the voice for the voiceless.

Does the poor girl in wheelchair represent the Chinese government?

Do American people need to stop blaming others and begin asking the terrorists how they feel, and why they feel that way? I am sure the terrorists have griefvances too.

I am all for human rights for Tibetans. But those rioters lost me when they start killing. What griefvances justify killing of innocents? And why the Western media try to paint them as victims?

Here is a picture of the protest in Ottawa, April 13, 2008

http://i26.tinypic.com/2ccxov8.jpg

Cam,

1. The western press is not voicing for the voiceless. They are voicing for the "Tibet Government in Exile", who reside in India, and is sponsored by the west. I have been to Tibet myself, I have also seen many posts on the internet with people describing and showing photos of their trip to Tibet, what I can see from my experience and their photos is that most Tibetan Chinese don't oppose the government at all. If the western press indeed want to voice for Tibetan Chinese, they need to go to Tibet and report things there, instead of visiting Tibetans who live in India, Europe, or US. I have yet to see any unbiased report by the western media in this regard, can you point me to one?

2. In San Francisco, the ratio between pro-China and pro-Tibet protesters is like 50:1, yet the pro-Tibet ones got much more coverage. If "media management" has such a great impact, I'd as well not trust the media any more.

Anon,

The senseless killing of Han Chinese by Tibetans was abhorrent, but is also used as a crutch in your argument. Tibetans have long-standing grievances with their Chinese rulers that date back decades. The bottom line is Tibetans are a religious people, and the Dalai Lama is their King. You can send in all the education teams you want, but people will die before they give up their religion. China has been slow to grasp this fact. China can either choose to properly deal with Tibet now, or continue having these flareups, which will continue for decades into the future unless the underlying causes are dealt with.

Do Americans ask terrorists how they feel, and why? Yes, they do. In fact, there have been a number of documentaries - and even an award winning movie - that looks at some of the concerns and motives of terrorists in Palestine and elsewhere.

@XNiteman:

No, the ratio was not 50:1. Despite this, the first interview I saw on Fox News that day - Fox News, I reiterate - was with a pro-Chinese protester. Interviews with the pro-China side were carried throughout the day.

Second, I assume you are Chinese. My girlfriend is also Chinese, and has visited Tibet. She, like you, says most people have no problem with Chinese rule. What can you expect them to say? You represent the status quo, and those which oppose Chinese rule end up in jail. What Tibetans tell Chinese visitors and foreign visitors are completely different.

Anon,

The attack on Jin Jing, the disabled athlete in Paris, was disgusting. Most western people I've talked to agree that it was a very poor thing to do, and hurts the cause of the Free T!bet people.

However, Jin Jing doesn't represent the government any more than those hooligan protesters represent mainstream western opinion.

Cam,

Okay, they tell foreigners different things. What do they say? Please point me to one objective documentary by the western media.

In fact, I think it's funny you feel this way. Are ordinary Chinese tourists going to report to the police and put them in jail if local Tibetan Chinese complained about the government? Do local Tibetan Chinese consider tourists spies sent by the government so they dare not tell their true feelings? Are the local Tibetan Chinese all great actors who, while believing in heart the tourists are possibly spies to oversee them, still looks like they welcome the tourists so warmly, and behaves so friendly to them?

Any reasonable, unbiased person would require solid evidence before they come to believe this little consipiracy theory. I hope you really have the evidence, not just "it was the case 35 years ago, so it must be the same now", or "some BBC reporters went there, he asked some exiled Tibetans in India, they told him so."

"Tibetans have long-standing grievances with their Chinese rulers that date back decades. "

Correction:
Tibetans in exile have long-standing grievances with their Chinese rulers that date back decades.

"...Dalai Lama is their King. You can send in all the education teams you want, but people will die before they give up their religion. China has been slow to grasp this fact. China can either choose to properly deal with Tibet now, or continue having these flareups, which will continue for decades into the future unless the underlying causes are dealt with."

Yes, Dalai Lama is their God King. Most religious Tibetans want him to come back, most secular Tibetans don't care, and most Tibetans in the communist party definitely don't want him to come back. The majority of the Tibetans are not seeking independence. We understand the situation perfectly. We agree that the Tibetans (and all Chinese people for that matter) should have religious freedom. But the problem is that the Dalai Lama is not only a religious figure, he is also a politician whose "government" is backed by western powers and is seeking independence. The problem will be solved when Beijing picks the pro-Beijing 15th Dalai Lama (as the way it has always been for centuries). By that time China will be a much stronger and freer country, fewer governments will support the exile government's cause. And Tibetans will be able to worship whomever they want.

"Do Americans ask terrorists how they feel, and why? Yes, they do. In fact, there have been a number of documentaries - and even an award winning movie - that looks at some of the concerns and motives of terrorists in Palestine and elsewhere."

Are you kidding? This is how America tries to understand the terrorists - they bomb the crap out of them!

We haven't heard anybody asking Bush to talk to OBL, have we?

@XNiteman: I have several documentaries and movies at my apartment. I'd be happy to lend them to you. However I fear that anything that might possibly suggest China has been anything but virtuous in its rule over Tibet will be seen as "biased".

Criticism of China and "bias" is not the same thing.

@Anon: I respect your point of view, and I hope you respect mine as well. After reading your first quotation, you assert that only Tibetans in exile have problems with Chinese rule. This, to me, insinuates that your head must be several feet deep into the sand. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree, as conversation further is difficult when we can't agree on this fundamental point.

Cam- you are absolutely right. I haven't been to Tibet, but I have been to Tibetan areas of Qinghai, and several people, when I was American, thanked me for what the US did for Tibetans, or told me to tell the government to come back to kick the Chinese out; and I wasn't leading them on, I was steering clear of politics completely. The fact that the Chinese/English-speaking Tibetans I was with- who, like me, had been admonished to not screw up our rare opportunity (school program) by talking politics- bothered to translate these remarks probably indicates some level of sympathy for them. After all, one of my companions was covered in knife scars from an apparently unprovoked gang attack; (thinking back, I think I avoided asking the background of his attackers, but it was implied) and another Tibetan on our trip had his arm broken when taken into police custody for, as far as anybody could tell, being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I will also never forget the presentation a substitute teacher who had been to Tibet gave in middle school; a Tibetan gave him a bowl made out of the top of a skull to eat out of, and, seeing his horror, assured him "it's okay, it's just a Chinese skull." Yep, sounds like they're just smiling and dancing the days away out there. If Chinese people are going to continue to insist, based on a tour they or a friend took, and DESPITE the riots, that most Tibetans are just thrilled to pieces with their current status and that any unrest is part of a plot fomented from outside- then people are probably going to keep calling them brainwashed.

Cam,

Of course I respect your views, although I disagree with them.

"After reading your first quotation, you assert that only Tibetans in exile have problems with Chinese rule. This, to me, insinuates that your head must be several feet deep into the sand."

Really? Where are the evidences that majority of the Tibetans have problems with Chinese rule? How did you get that impression? Thru the Western media I guess? Well, haven't we learnt anything about the Western media lately? And where do they get their "facts" from? The TGIE who fled the country 50 years ago and have no access and control over the larger Tibetan population in Tibet but a few hundred monks?

Until you acknowledge the fact that you have been spoon-fed with false information about Tibet by your media, you are not going to understand how we Chinese feel.

It's believable to me that majority of the religious Tibetans want the DL to come back and most of them want autonomy, but I just haven't seen any credible evidence that most Tibetans want independence. Tibetans are divided on this issue at best. Maybe you know something that I don't know, please educate me.

Here is a good debate on this issue if you are interested:
http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=68073

Here is good book on Tibet writen by a Western scholar who studies Tibetan history and actually lived and did research in Tibet.
http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft2199n7f4/

Seeing all the recent drama that mangled the run up to the Olympic games in Beijing and with more promised to come, most Westerners would agree with Sarkozy that “I can see the Chinese (government?) have a problem.”

Sarkozy is wrong; the problem has already been resolved, and the Olympic games, if it happens, will be an anticlimax. And, if I have to name a winner in this proxy contest, I say the “Chinese” people won.

The Western treatment of the run up to the Olympic games in Beijing has galvanized the “Chinese” people worldwide, and they seem to agree on one thing. This world dominated by the West is not a friendly place for the “Chinese” people, and they still have a lot of work to do. To unite is the best way to carry out this task.

Strangely enough, I don’t think any one could have predicted this outcome even as recently as a week ago. We have to thank “lao wai” for this gift. They helped planting a seed that will in a short time grow into a new paragdim.

I think the new paragdim will be something like this: from here on we will play by ‘Chinese” rules. At least playing by this new set of rules and when we get to our goal we shall be content. Not like now, we play by Western rules and when we think we got there, Westerners turn their criticisms to, it’s not “what you did” but “how you did it“.

For example, you “Chinese” people have done great things. You have removed hunger, lowered poverty and illiteracy, improved health services…, but you did it with a Communistic government. If you had done 1/100th of what you have accomplished but with Democracy and with due observance of “human rights“, free speech, … why …we would have loved you 100 times more! You get the idea.

I see the developing countries very much in the corner with “China”. They want to see an orderly celebration of the Olympic games in Beijing. They are eager to behold and marvel at the magnificent venues built in Beijing for this celebration. They might even get the idea that “China”, a country of 1.3 billion people, has done a good job in reinventing itself, and there could be something there they want to take home and use for themselves. They are curious in what the “Chinese” have done as well as how the “Chinese” did it. As the developing world today holds 41% of the world’s economy and grows at a rate that continues to out pace the West, I see this new paragdim will work well indeed. Thanks “lao wai”!!

P. S. By the way, they were not "exiled" they were "self-exiled", a small and fine difference.

MAC,

Apparently these two Americans disagree with you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNeGcLoPFow&feature=related

Here's one of many reasons why the Olympics should not be allowed to disintegrate:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/apr/14/olympicgames2008.china?gusrc=rss&feed=worldnews

Backwards is the only possible direction, if the sh-t don't stop flying.

Mac,

Cool, so you can deny all the experiences of others' trips based on your own trip. Nice try.

But remember, no one says there is no problem in Tibet, and no place on this planet is problem-free. You are welcome to contribute your own experience (your above description is quite vague btw, people will be interested to see more details) so that we understand Tibet and its problems better.

Our problems with the western media is not that they say bad things about Tibet, it's that they say so without any concrete evidence. In my eyes, an objective reporter need to go to various places in Tibet (cities, towns, villages, etc), visit various people, photograph their everyday lives, etc, not just visiting a number of people (most of the cases, much worse, people who live in India!) and asking certain questions. No one knows their criteria of interviewee selection.

When people disagree with you, before saying they are brainwashed, try to check whether you are convincing enough.

@XNiteMan,

Anon suggested there were no problems in Tibet, by saying only the Tibetan Government in Exile had problems with Chinese rule.

As for your other point, here is the situation:

China has been ruling Tibet for nearly 60 years. Over that time, there have been large-scale uprisings in 1959, 1989, and 2008. There have been periodic periods of unrest in between. Also during this time, China has maintained a strong military presence in the region, and has clamped down on foreign visitors. Off and on, it is very difficult for foreigners to get access to the area.

So what is going on in Tibet? Why won't your government let foreign journalists in to see? You're right, nobody knows for sure what's going on there, because reporters are barred from entering. Do you not think, that when one covers something up and refuses to provide information, that maybe they are trying to hide something? If China is so confident that Tibetans are happy and the region is pacified, why don't they let journalists in to confirm?

Second, the overwhelming majority of correspondents based in Beijing have done exactly what you've said: they've visited Tibet, many towns and cities, and talked to Tibetans. And their stories have reflected unhappiness there. I'd reckon that foreign journalists have spent far more time in Tibet than many Chinese.

At the end of the day, if Tibet is happy and pacified, show us. If you're right, the FT movement will die pretty fast.

Cam,

You said this first:
"Why won't your government let foreign journalists in to see? You're right, nobody knows for sure what's going on there, because reporters are barred from entering."

Then you said this next:
"the overwhelming majority of correspondents based in Beijing have done exactly what you've said: they've visited Tibet, many towns and cities, and talked to Tibetans. And their stories have reflected unhappiness there."

Is there something wrong?

Cam,

Let me ask you one question:

Considering that "the overwhelming majority of correspondents based in Beijing have done exactly what you've said: they've visited Tibet, many towns and cities, and talked to Tibetans."

Do you (western reporters) have the integrity to tell your audience at home that there is no "cultural genocide" in Tibet? The accusation made by The DL is a LIE.

However, the reality is that the DL is allowed to continue to make groundless accusations unchallenged by the western reporters.

@CC:

I think you are misconstruing my words. The first paragraph about reporters not knowing what's going on in Tibet means now, following the Lhasa riots and other protests. Tibet has been closed to foreign journalists since.

While foreigners have traveled extensively in Tibet, it is not easy to do so. Many correspondents, such as Richard Spencer and Tim Johnson, have written about the experience on their blogs. Melinda Liu, the president of the Beijing Foreign Correspondents Club, also has talked about it.

Finally, the Dalai Lama is entitled to his opinion. To report both sides of the story, reporters will report what the Dalai Lama says and what China says, and then report what they find themselves. Like protesters you or I might not agree with, they still are entitled to their opinions. If reporters suddenly refused to report one perspective, that would be true bias.

Cam,

"If reporters suddenly refused to report one perspective, that would be true bias."

Sorry, this is what I see and it is not suddenly. My opinion anyway.

"Anon suggested there were no problems in Tibet, by saying only the Tibetan Government in Exile had problems with Chinese rule."

Cam, please don't put words in my mouth. I never suggested that there were no problems in Tibet. As a matter of fact, I acknowledged that many Tibetans want the DL to come back, which I think is the main problem in Tibet. The other problem is economic inequality, but I don't think that's entirely the government's fault.

BTW, I did a search on CBC's website, not a single word about the Chinese protest in Ottawa. I thought 10,000 Chinese demonstrated in front of the Capital deserves a mention. Why am I not surprised?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO9F2eVG8RA

cc,

Re: "If reporters suddenly refused to report one perspective, that would be true bias."

You say: "Sorry, this is what I see and it is not suddenly. My opinion anyway."

I know that I am stating the bleeding obvious, but isn't it true that reporters here are far, far "worse" in that regard? As the media is by and large state controlled, and completely state supervised, this philosophy of one-sided reporting is very deeply ingrained in the reporting of everything from issues like the current crapola, to pollution (I'm told there have been no daily API figures released for a while), to corruption (look how much things are improving, x went for a swing, while y gets 18 years...and never mind the rest of the alphabet), to infinitum. "Bad news", when reported, often seems staged to my skeptical eye. In short the system is machine-like in nature. And the machine ensures that the sun always shines on the Middle Kingdom.

I think most "Westerners" reading and commenting here would and have readily admitted that "Western" media orgs have made some really stupid "mistakes" when it comes to their "reporting" of this whole deal... But they have generally not "completely" ignored the other side's perspective altogether.

I think it is one thing to "crop" a photo... I'm no "pro", but I think its a big part of photography in this "digital age"... and I think it's another to cut out half of the soundbite comments from a visiting "leader", an interviewed athlete, and ordinary "waiguoren" on the street, just because they balance their "positive" comments with a "negative" idea.

Can you "admit" that this "problem" runs deep in Chinese media "reporting"? Can you proffer an explanation?

Writing that comment reminded me of something... which I'll add in now.

On a train journey recently (but long before the sh-t hit the fan in TB), I was flicking through one of the free magazines they leave lying around for the travelers' diversion.

Of course, from front page to back, it was filled with success stories about the province to which I was traveling, as well as of the country as a whole. Every page, that is, except for those in the small section dedicated to "Global Perspective" or something so...

No smiling peasants, or porky officials signing deals surrounded by grinning minions there... instead, tornadoes, floods, bombs, Iraq, bridge collapses and other such catastrophes both natural and man created...

It's not that I find such images disturbing. I'm used to seeing them. But I did find it interesting that they were all crammed together into a section called "Global Perspective" (or something like that). Pain and sorrow was the expression on every face in the section... in stark contrast to the faces on every other (China-related) page, who seemed to be bursting with joy.

The evil "West" certainly runs no monopoly on one-sided "reporting."

Balboa,

"Can you "admit" that this "problem" runs deep in Chinese media "reporting"? Can you proffer an explanation?"

Yes, I can. I admit anything so long that is a matter of fact that can be proved/verified. Whether I like it or not is a different issue.

Explanation? I give you the key one. The Chinese media is largely controlled by the Government and is largely state run. Many of them(e.g. People's daily)publicly admit (also well known) that they are propaganda outlets of the Party/government.

However, this is not the case for western media, isn't it?

It has become a kind of norm for some people to come to the defense of the western media using the kettle-pot technique. Sorry, it doesn't work, at least with me.

I repeat my view: The western media is considerably biased when it comes to reporting China, especially in the field of politics related stories. Many so called "Journalists" cannot differentiate facts from opinions.

Finger pointing at the one-sided reporting in Chinese media does not change the above.

If BBC or CNN tomorrow announce that they are part of a propaganda machine that reflects ONLY ONE point of view when it comes to reporting "China", I will shut up immediately.

By the way, have you heard of James Reynolds? Check this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNu3QGKyd-0